[2022年6月4日 · 於美國首都華盛頓專訪中國國民黨主席朱立倫]

Q:  主席，特別謝謝您，感謝您接受我們鳳凰衛視的專訪，首先想預祝您生日快樂。

Q:  Mr. Chairman, thank you very much, thank you for doing this one-on-one interview with Phoenix TV. I’d like to wish you a happy birthday in advance.

A:  喔！怎麼你那麼巧會知道？

A:  Oh! How did you find out?

Q:  我們有了解到，對。您正好是在您生日的時候來訪美，想必這個行程是非常重要。

Q:  We came to know that, right. You are visiting the United States on your birthday, it must be a very important trip.

A:  是。

A: Yes.

Q:  您這次訪美的主要目的是什麼呢？

Q:  What’s the main purpose of your visit?

A:  謝謝你啊。剛才其實這次訪美啊，很開心，又碰到端午節，又碰到生日，可是最重要的目的還是為了我們的國民黨駐美代表處重新開幕，為什麼講它是重新開幕呢？因為事實上我們過去啊，在2008年以前有駐美代表處。

[AUDIO ADJUSTMENT]

A:  Thank you. To tell you the truth, it’s my pleasure to visit the U.S., the trip coincides with the Dragon Boat Festival and coincides with my birthday, but the most important purpose is for the reopening of our Kuomintang (KMT) Representative Office in the U.S. Why did I say it’s “reopening”? Because actually, we used to have a representative office in the U.S. before 2008.

[AUDIO ADJUSTMENT]

Q:  不好意思，您剛才提到辦公室原本其實是在08年的時候是有開，但是時隔多年，中間這好幾年都是關閉的，時隔多年又重開，為什麼選在這個時候要重開呢？

Q:  I’m sorry. You just mentioned that the office existed in 2008, but after many years, there is a several-year gap during which the office is closed. And now it’s reopening after many years, why now?

A:  好。很重要第一件事情，我們在過去有駐美代表處，那2008年關了之後，就沒有這樣的我們的聲音，我們的人在華府，那民進黨執政之後呢，它不但還有民進黨駐美代表處，又有官方的駐美代表處，等於是他們有雙重的聲音。那在台灣等於是我們國民黨的聲音就沒有辦法讓美方的朋友能夠知道，我覺得這是對於一個民主的體制來講是不對的，只有聽到一方的聲音，再加上民進黨長期以來一直幫我們貼一個標籤，所以因為我們主張兩岸和平，我們主張對話，就把我們說成是“親中反美”的政黨，那事實上我們是親美，而且希望兩岸和平的一個政黨。所以我們才會希望回到美國來，回到華府。

A:  Alright. The most important thing, first of all, we used to have a U.S. representative office, ever since when it was shut down in 2008, we haven’t had a voice or our people in Washington, D.C. After the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP)  took power, it has not only a party representative office in the U.S., but also an official representative office, that basically means they have two sets of representation. That means there’s no way our KMT’s voice in Taiwan could be heard by our American friends, and I don’t think that’s right for a democracy when we only hear from one side. Plus, the DPP has long been putting a label on us, because we promote a peaceful Taiwan Strait, because we push for dialogues, they claim that we are a “pro-China, anti-U.S.” party. In fact, we are a party that’s pro-U.S., and hoping for a peaceful Taiwan Strait. That’s why we want to come back to the U.S., and to Washington, D.C. 

Q:  您剛才提到的民進黨給國民黨貼標籤，所謂親中賣台，但是他們剛好用這個反中的主張吸引到很多選民的支持，國民黨怎麼打算向民眾來表達你們的立場呢？

Q:  You just mentioned that the DPP is putting labels on KMT, claiming that you are “pro-China and selling out Taiwan.” Meanwhile we see their “anti-China” rhetoric being welcomed by a lot of voters. How would the KMT explain your stand to the people?

A:  我們當然知道這是相當的困難，因為在舉全世界這個趨勢之下，所以民進黨運用這個趨勢來製造所謂我們是“親中賣台”的政黨，而事實上國民黨從成立到今天，100多年來，對我不論是從我們中華民國一直到台灣，保衛台灣啊，對於台灣所有的建設是我們流血流汗完成。流血流汗完成的，而沒有一次，沒有任何一分鐘出賣台灣。而民進黨用這樣的一個貼標籤，我們必須要讓全世界的朋友知道說我們是最愛台灣的政黨，我們是最愛民主體制的政黨，而且我們是希望兩岸能夠持續的和平，能夠交流，能夠對話，而更希望全世界能夠接受我們的聲音，而我們也不希望說永遠都是用一種對抗，要走回冷戰或冷合的時候，那個時期的，過去的這個老路子，所以我們國民黨會用這樣子一個正面積極的態度來面對。當然我知道現階段是比較困難，但是如果困難就不做的話，就不是國民黨了，因為國民黨從孫中山開始走到今天，都是在困難當中走出一條路。

A:  Of course we know it’s pretty difficult, because of the trend around the whole world, so the DPP uses this trend to fabricate a reputation, alleging our party is “pro-China and selling out Taiwan”. However in reality, since the KMT was established more than 100 years ago, whether it’s from the Republic of China all the way to Taiwan, or it’s protecting Taiwan, it took our painstaking efforts to build up Taiwan. Those are painstaking efforts, we never sold out Taiwan, not for even one second. However, the DPP is still putting tags on us. We must let our friends from the whole world understand that we are the party that loves Taiwan the most, we are the party that loves democracy the most, and we hope for the situation across Taiwan Strait can continue to be peaceful, where we can communicate, where we can talk, and we also hope that the world can accept our urges. Neither do we aim for a forever standoff, like the ones during the Chinese Civil War, that’s the old way from the past, that’s why our party will approach with a positive attitude. Of course, I understand it’s kind of difficult right now, but if we don’t do it just because it’s difficult, we are not the KMT anymore, because the KMT party, starting from Sun Yat-sen all the way till today, has been pushing forward while dealing with challenges.

Q:  其中一個困難我想提到的就是，目前國民黨在台灣島內支持率，是大概兩三成左右，您怎麼向美國各界證明國民黨是代表了台灣的民意呢？

Q:  One of the challenges, I’d like to mention, is the approval ratings of KMT within Taiwan range from 20% to 30%. How would you prove to the U.S. that the KMT is, in fact, representing the people of Taiwan?

A:  哎，其實我們應該這樣講啊，每一次的民調的數字是不一樣的。可是在選舉過程當中，比如說我們現在在全台灣的22個主要的城市，22個縣市裡，國民黨執政是佔了14個。所以也就是說在地方的選舉當中，我們幾乎贏得了2/3的席次，當然即便在全台灣的目前的立法院裡面，我們還有佔有1/3強的席次，我們就是希望用這樣的一個角度逐漸的來努力，那未來的年底的選舉當中，我們很樂觀的來看的話，我覺得我們國民黨還是能夠勝選，然後在2024年我們才有機會逐步地能夠重返執政。

A:  Well, I think we should look at it this way – every single opinion poll comes with different numbers. However, during elections, for example, among the 22 major cities in Taiwan right now, in the 22 cities and counties, the KMT controls 14 of them. So in local elections, we have won almost 2/3 of the seats. And of course, even in the current Legislative Yuan, we take up 1/3 of the seats. We want to start from this position and push forward step by step. In this November’s election, from a very optimistic perspective, I still think our KMT can win, so that in 2024 we would have an opportunity to be back in power. 

Q:  那我們看到2020年的數字，您對2024年持樂觀態度，但是我們看回2020年的數字，好像大選的，民進黨候選人的支持率好像是接近六成，您怎麼就是向選民來競選，然後來扭轉這個支持率，國民黨方面有什麼打算？

Q:  Let’s take a look at the numbers in 2020 – you are optimistic about 2024, but let’s take a look at the numbers in 2020, it seems that in the presidential election, DPP’s candidate won almost 60% of the votes. How would you campaign and win back the voters, what’s the party’s plan?

A:  哈，我想是這樣子哈，任何的政黨不是一步可即地就達到一個最高的目標。

[PAUSED BY OUTDOOR NOISE]

A:  Well, in my view, no party can achieve its highest goal all in one step.

[PAUSED BY OUTDOOR NOISE]

Q:  我們剛才提到國民黨在2020年的選情不是很利，大選不是很利，您打算怎麼扭轉這樣的態勢？

Q:  We were just talking about KMT’s lacking performance back in 2020, how would you change the situation?

A:  哦，我想不是一個政黨可以馬上就扭轉，但是一定是一步一步的來啊，最重要的第一步，就是我們把所有過去很多的支持的朋友逐漸的找回來。第二個一件事情，我們要爭取更多年輕朋友的支持，那第三件事情，我們要讓國際了解國民黨的立場是什麼，這就是我們重返華府的一個重要目標。然後接下來就是年底的選舉，如果我們年底的選舉能夠獲得超過一半以上的民眾的支持，我們很有信心會達到這樣的一個目標。然後我們從這邊就出發，穩健的推出最好的候選人，那麼2024年當然有機會獲得超過50%，就是半數以上的選票。

A: Well, I don’t think a party can immediately change (the situation), but it must take one step at a time. The most important one, first, is to reach out to many of our supportive friends one by one. Second, we must fight for more support from the youth. The third thing is, we must let the world understand what the KMT is standing for, this is an important goal for us to reach when we come back to D.C. What’s next is the end-of-year election, if we can win the support of more than half of the voters, we are very confident that we can achieve this goal. Then we would start from there, steadily promoting the best candidates, then we are gonna have a chance to win more than 50%, more than half of the votes.

Q:  如果到時候就是年底的大選跟2024年大選不利的話，您是否能夠接受(國民)黨長期處於一個少數黨的地位？

Q:  If the KMT lost the November election or even the 2024 presidential election, would you accept being in a minority party in the long run?

A:  我覺得應該這樣講，我們現在是少數黨，但是我們在地方是多數黨。那我們還是有信心說，今年一定在年底的選舉當中，我們還是多數黨，只是說在全台灣的一個選舉當中，我們能不能夠2024年獲得勝選，我們要更努力，但是我相信是一步一步的來啊，每一個政黨本來就是如此，我不認為台灣的民主會讓一個政黨長期成為執政黨，也不可能讓國民黨長期成為在野黨。

A:  I think of it this way, we are now the minority party, but we are the majority at the local level. We are still confident to say that after this November’s election, we are still going to be the majority party. However when it comes to the major election for the entire Taiwan, whether we can win 2024 – we need to push harder, but I believe it takes one step at a time, every single political party works like this. I don’t believe that Taiwan’s democratic system would allow one single party to be in power for a long time, nor would it let the KMT always be the party out of power.

Q:  您剛才提到國民黨回來是要找回在美國的一些朋友，您怎麼看目前美國政策制定方對華的一些政策，好像近幾年有越來越強硬的這樣一個趨勢，您怎麼看？

Q:  You just said that the KMT is coming back in order to reach out to friends in America. What do you think about the U.S.’ policies towards China, it seems like the policies are getting tougher. What do you think?

A:  沒有錯，現在你如果提到說美中關係，基本上它還是處於一個緊張對抗的關係，那台灣在整個太平洋島鏈上面，如果它就是一個最前線，我們要告訴美方的朋友，第一個國民黨希望扮演一個穩定性的角色，一個和平促進的角色，而不是一個麻煩製造者的角色。那既然我們是一個穩定性的角色，那就是說我們一方面希望自我能夠防衛台灣啊，就是說整個我們的國防的力量能夠不斷的提升，在這個同時我們也會避免衝突，希望避免衝突，怎麼避免衝突，就兩岸還是需要有一些對話溝通的機制跟管道。那我們不是說今天是，凡事去聽任何一方的，而是能夠有這樣的對話管道或溝通管道，避免衝突，避免誤會，避免造成任何的意外，我覺得這是一個避免戰爭的一個基本態度，所以國民黨會從這個角度去做，我們希望做一個兩岸關係的穩定者。10:09 那第二個呢，我們國民黨從這個，從我們的黨綱，黨章裡面當中就非常清楚，我們是反對台獨，為什麼我們反對台獨，因為我們是中華民國的創建者，我們是這個國家的創建者，就是我們所堅持的，那任何台獨不就是破壞了、來要影響中華民國的存在，所以我們從頭到尾就是反對態度，10:36 那我們也會讓對岸，包括北京的朋友非常清楚我們反對台獨的立場，然後也同時讓華府的朋友也知道，我們反對台獨的立場，就是為了不要造成兩岸更嚴重的衝突，所以我們相信我們除了在跟對岸的一個對話溝通以外，而另外一個我們是反對態度。那第三個就是整個國家安全或者是國防的，這些所有的事物，我們是一個有經驗，有計劃的一個政黨，也就是我們有很多專業的人才，包括台灣的國防的需求，或者國防的裝備，國防的訓練啊，軍事，這個所有的操演這些我們都比較有經驗，所以也可以讓美方的朋友，也可以讓全世界朋友知道這樣的一個事實。所以我們是一項一項一項地告訴國際的朋友，那對岸也應該很清楚國民黨這一方面的經驗，所以我們是一個希望穩定兩岸關係，創造一個和平的環境，對話的環境的一個政黨。

A:  That’s right. Now if you talk about the U.S. – China relationship, it is basically still a tense and confrontational relationship. Taiwan is on the entire Pacific island chain, and if it is right on the frontline, then we have to tell our friends in the U.S. that, first of all, the KMT wants to play a stabilizing role, a peace-promoting role, not a role of a troublemaker. Since we are a stable player, that means on one hand, we hope that we can self-defend Taiwan, that is to say, the strength of our national defense could continuously improve. At the same time, we would also avoid conflicts. We hope to avoid conflicts. How do we avoid conflicts? Both sides of the Taiwan Strait still need to have some mechanisms and channels in place for dialogues and communication. We are not saying that everything depends on only one side, but having such channels for dialogues and communication is for the sake of avoiding conflicts, avoiding misunderstandings, preventing any accidents from happening, I think this is a basic attitude to avoid war, so the KMT will take this approach, and we hope to be a stabilizer in the cross-strait relations. Second, our party has been very clear on this – according to our party’s agenda as well as our party’s constitution – we are against Taiwan independence. Why do we oppose Taiwan independence? Because we are the founders of the Republic of China, this is what we’ve been standing for. Well then, isn’t any sort of Taiwan independence destroying and impacting the existence of the Republic of China? That’s why we oppose this at all times. We will also let the friends on the other side of the Taiwan Strait, including Beijing, understand clearly that we oppose Taiwan independence, meanwhile we would also let friends in Washington know that our opposition to Taiwan independence is for the sake of not causing more serious conflicts between the two sides of the strait, so we believe that besides communicating with the other side of the strait, we are against [Taiwan independence]. The third point is on national security or national defense. On all of these things, we are a political party with experience and plans, that is, we have a lot of professional talents, including on Taiwan’s national defense needs, or national defense gears, national defense training, military, and all these exercises, we are more experienced. So we can also let our friends in America and all over the world recognize this fact. Therefore, we are telling our friends all over the world one issue at a time, and the other side of the strait should also know the KMT’s experience on these matters very well, so we are a political party that aims to stabilize cross-strait relations, to create a peaceful environment and an environment for dialogues.

Q:  您剛才提到三點，其中有一點就是希望加强两岸之間的對話，前幾年的時候，兩黨的高層領導人都還有往來，都還有交流，近幾年好像這方面的交流比較少了一點，您是否希望還恢復這樣的交流呢？

Q:  On the three points you just said, one of them is to facilitate dialogues across the Taiwan Strait. A few years ago, senior officials from the two parties were talking, were communicating, but in recent years, such exchanges haven’t really been much. Would you still like to resume these kinds of communications?

A:  其實這有兩個因素啊，一個因素是因為我們過去是執政黨，現在我們是在野黨，那執政黨總是比較有多的機會官方地交流，那我們現在是在野黨。第二個因素，大家都很清楚，這三年來受到所謂的新冠疫情的影響，那國際的交流或者是兩岸交流自然就減少了。以我自己為例子，我自三年來第一次出訪出國才來到華府，那同樣地，我相信有非常多台灣的朋友，現在都一樣的情況，所以變成交流的情況就不像過去這麼樣的頻繁。但是你說透過視訊會議或者是視訊的討論還是經常發生的啊，不管是兩岸的關心的一些，民眾關心的一些議題。包括我們的台生、台胞、台商關心的一些議題或學術交流的議題，或者各項的研討會，還是透過視訊的方式在舉辦。

A:  There are two reasons here. First, we were the party in power, now we are a party out of power, and the party in power has always had more opportunities to conduct official exchanges, but we are currently a party out of power. The second thing is, we all know, the past three years due to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, international or cross-strait communication has decreased as a result. I myself, for example, this is my first international trip for the last three years, I couldn’t come to Washington, D.C. until now. As such, I believe that there are many Taiwanese friends who are in the same situation now, so the communication is not as frequent as those in the past. But when it comes to video conferences or video meetings still happen all the time, whether it is something that both sides of the strait are concerned about, or some issues that the people are concerned about. Some issues that our Taiwanese students, Taiwanese diaspora, and Taiwanese business owners are concerned about, or academic exchanges, or all kinds of seminars, are still held virtually.

Q: 您剛才提到的第二點，我想問一下，關於台灣獨立方面，您已經明確表明國民黨是反對台獨的，之前國務卿布林肯在他的講話當中明確反對台獨，您也同意他的說法，但是之前是在國務院網站上面原本有這樣一句表述”我們反對台獨”，但是那一句表述後來刪掉了，您怎麼看？是不是證明美方其實在這方面搖擺不定呢？

Q: On your second point, I’d like to ask about Taiwan independence. You have clearly stated that the KMT opposes Taiwan independence, Secretary Blinken also said in his speech that America opposes Taiwan independence, you agree with him. However there was a sentence on the State Department’s website that says “The United States does not support Taiwan independence.” , but that was deleted later. What do you think? Is this an indication that the U.S. is, in fact, taking a wibbly-wobbly stance on this matter?

A:  哎，最近不是又放回來了啊？

A:  Well, didn’t they put it back recently?

Q: 放回來了嗎？

Q: They did?

A: 已經放回來了啊，一樣的，美方的立場也是不支持台獨，我相信這個立場跟國民黨的立場是一致的，而不是因為朱立倫要來訪美才放回來的，的確是最近又在國務院的這個官方的網頁上面已經重新放回來了。那我也希望啊，這樣的一個宣示，直接可以告訴有一些積極在推動台灣獨立的一些人士，讓他清楚啊，不單是國民黨反對台獨啊，不單是，不單是我們反台獨，很多人反對台獨，包括美方的朋友，官方的立場也都是如此，所以我覺得把這件事情明確的告訴這些人是好事啊，避免兩岸之間發生嚴重的衝突，也避免國際之間受到任何的影響。

A: They did, they share the same view. The U.S. does not support Taiwan independence either. I believe their stand is the same as the KMT, not because of Eric Chu’s visit to the U.S., but the statement was actually put back onto the State Department’s official website. I hope that this statement is a direct rebuttal to those who actively push for Taiwan independence, telling them not only KMT is against the idea of Taiwan independence, we are not the only group that’s against it, but also many people, including our friends in America, the U.S. government’s stand is also against it. So I think it is a good thing to tell these people in clear terms, to prevent any serious escalation across the Taiwan Strait, and to avoid any fall out on the world stage.

Q: 說到台獨，我想問一下關於九二共識的問題，您早前是認為應該繼續承認九二共識，但是您認為美國的政策制定方是不是在這個九二共識上面的意向越來越模糊，開始可能出現往民進黨方向靠攏的這樣一個情況？

Q: Now we are talking about Taiwan Independence, I’d like to ask you about the “1992 Consensus”. You said before that the consensus should be recognized, but do you think the policymakers in the U.S. are not making their stands on this issue as clearly as before, while perhaps siding with the DPP over time? 

A: 應該這樣講啊，我們所謂九二共識是從過去我們根據我們的憲法，中華民國憲法到兩岸人民關係條例，到1992年九二會談一路走下來，最後我們把它定為九二共識，而這個九二共識我們的闡述都非常的清楚，我們把它放在我們的黨章跟政綱裡面，這個都很清楚的，所以我們這個是延續性的，我們也希望說兩岸之間有能夠有這樣子的一個共識，大家持續地能夠交流，但是我們不希望任何一方片面的去改變所謂的九二共識，也不希望九二共識被污名化，也不希望它被認為啊，有人把它直接扭曲為說主張是一國兩制，我再次強調，國民黨是非常清楚的告訴大家，我們反對一國兩制，這個都是我們的，在我們黨的政綱裡面寫的非常清楚的。所以回過頭來講，我們希望兩岸持續秉持我們黨章，黨綱裡面的所有的規範，持續的交流，所以對岸也很清楚，我們用這樣的一個方式，只要能夠溝通協調，能夠對台灣人民有利，對世界和平有利，我們都會持續來做。

A: Let me put it this way: our so-called “1992 Consensus”, in the past, was according to our constitution – the ROC Constitution – to the Cross-Strait Act, to the ARATS-SEF meeting in 1992 all the way till now, finally we listed it as the “1992 Consensus”. When it comes to the “1992 Consensus”, we state it in clear terms, we put it in our party charter and platform, it’s always been clear, so this is continual, and we hope this is a consensus across the strait, we can communicate consistently. But we don’t want anybody to unilaterally change the so-called “1992 Consensus”, nor do we want it to be stigmatized, nor do we want it to be seen as – some people mischaracterize it as “One Country, Two Systems”. Let me be clear one more time, the KMT is gonna tell everyone plainly that we oppose “One Country, Two Systems”. This has been written in clear terms in our party’s platform. So on this issue, once again, we hope both sides of the strait continue to uphold the standards in our party charter and platform, and continue to communicate. So the other side of the strait is clear that we are going to operate in this way, as long as we can talk and coordinate, as long as it’s beneficial to people in Taiwan and to the world’s peace, we will continue to do it.

Q: 您剛才說到對台灣人民有利，您認為在九二共識方面，還有維持台海和平穩定，或者說是維持台海的現狀，您認為台灣的主流民意到底是怎麼樣的呢現在？

Q: You just said you would do something to benefit people in Taiwan, in your opinion, when it comes to the “1992 Consensus”, maintaining a peaceful and stable Taiwan Strait, or keeping the status quo, what do you think the majority of the Taiwanese people prefer now?

A: 我覺得台灣的主流民意還是不希望戰爭，希望和平。那當然過去這幾年來，在美中所謂對抗的一個環境之下，民進黨可能長期就在操弄一個所謂的“親美抗中“、或者是“抗中保台”這樣子一個口號，其實我們應該嚴格講，我們是最愛台灣，我們只是主張說，用和平的方式來保衛台灣，不需要用戰爭的方式來保衛台灣，那兩方的差異，是一個是希望和平、避免戰爭，一個可能是對抗來保衛台灣。那我常說，大家請注意一下，國民黨的黨部的門口有九個字叫做“護台灣，保民主，拼未來“。護台灣就是能夠保護台灣，保護台灣，我們堅持我們的民主、自由的價值，然後追求一個和平、安定、繁榮的未來，這才是我們應該要做的，所以這是有什麼不對的地方呢？我常常會問台灣的朋友，問國際的朋友。所以這才是我們真正的主張。

A: I think the majority in Taiwan does not wish for war, rather, they want peace. Of course, in the past few years, against the backdrop of U.S. and China’s confrontation, the DPP has been putting out the so-called “pro-US and anti-China”, or the “resist China, defend Taiwan” slogans, but more precisely, we love Taiwan the most, we only advocate for a peaceful way to defend Taiwan, instead of going through war. The difference between us is, one is hoping for peace, avoiding war, and the other might defend Taiwan through confrontation. I always say, everyone please note that there are nine characters at the gate of KMT’s headquarters – “Safeguard Taiwan, Defend Democracy, Fight for the Future”. “Safeguard Taiwan” means to be able to protect Taiwan, to defend Taiwan, we stand by our values for democracy and freedom to pursue a peaceful, stable, prosper future, this is what we should do, so what’s wrong about it? I always pose this question to our friends in Taiwan and in other countries. So this is our real position.

Q: 您一說到護台灣，您支持協防台灣，您支持台灣增強自身的防禦部署，但是，美方當然也支持，但是美台共同支持增強防禦部署的時候，感覺好像每一次都會踩到大陸紅線，您怎麼平衡這兩點呢？

Q: You just talked about protecting Taiwan – you support defending Taiwan and boosting its own defense capability, however and of course the U.S. is also for it, but when the U.S. and Taiwan both support increasing Taiwan’s defense capability, it feels like every time it’s gonna step on the Chinese mainland’s red line. How do you make balance between them?

A: 我應該這樣講，台灣的增強所謂自我防衛的力量並不是攻擊的力量，而是自我防衛的力量，這是一個保衛台灣、也避免造成衝突的一個基本的一個態度。因為我覺得，要能夠有自我防衛的力量，才不會變成很容易產生侵略的一個企圖。所以我們是有一個最基本的一個態度，就是台灣應該有一個自我防衛的力量。那至於美方的朋友表達說，要協助防衛台灣，或是國際的朋友有這樣子的一個正面的表述，當然我們是感謝的，但是最重要還是要自我防衛的力量，那除了自我防衛的力量，透過所謂的對話、溝通，避免衝突不是比一切更好嗎？所以除了自我防衛更重要的、更高的成績就是能夠對話交流，避免衝突。

A: I should say this, Taiwan’s boost of the so-called self-defense capability is not the ability to attack, but the power of self-defense. This is a basic approach to defend Taiwan while avoiding conflicts. I think there should be power to defend ourselves in order to deter attempts of invasion. So that’s our basic approach, which is that Taiwan should have its own self-defense capability. When it comes to our American friend’s support to help defend Taiwan, or our friends around the world making such positive statements, of course we are grateful, however most importantly we need our self-defensive power. Besides that, isn’t working through dialogues, communications to avoid conflicts the better way? So besides self-defense, the ability to communicate and to prevent conflicts is the better practice.

Q: 說到這個防衛問題。想到之前，總統拜登所作出的“如果中國大陸武力對台灣採取行動的話，美國一定會干預“，你認為美方一定會有這種行動嗎？

Q: We are talking about the topic of defense, and it makes me think of what President Biden said earlier that if China were to invade Taiwan, the U.S. would intervene. Do you believe the U.S. would take such action?

A: 我們是表示歡迎的。就是說，拜登總統的這樣的一個宣示，總是希望能夠避免衝突，能夠避免對岸有誤判的一個情況。但是我剛剛已經強調過，我們不會單靠任何的一個承諾，或任何的一方說，他要來幫助我們。最重要，我們自己要做到兩件事情。第一件事情，我們要有自我健全的防衛力量、國防的力量，那第二個就是我們希望能夠透過對話避免衝突，透過大家的和平交流，相互了解，減少他的彼此緊張的氣氛，這個才是我們應該要一同進行的、同時進行的，少一個都不行。也就是說，沒有自我防衛的力量，沒有國防的力量，我覺得可能反倒還容易早產生衝突。那另外一方面，我們能夠對話、能夠交流，然後降低這樣子的一個緊張的氣氛，也能夠促進和平。

A: We welcome the position, that’s to say, President Biden’s declaration is always aiming to prevent conflicts and to avoid any misjudgement from the Chinese mainland. But as I made clear earlier, we won’t solely rely on a single promise, or anybody that said they were gonna help us. Most importantly, we need to complete two tasks ourselves: first of all, we must have a self-sustaining defense capability, the power of national defense; secondly we hope to prevent any conflict by having dialogues, by our peaceful communication and mutual understanding in order to mitigate the tension, this is what we should all work on together, not a bit less. That is to say, without self-defense capacity, without the power of national defense, I think it might actually be more prone to conflicts; on the other hand, if we can talk, if we can be in communication in order to ease the tension, we can facilitate peace. 

Q: 但是一方面對話交流好像似乎有點減少，但是另一方面，我們又看到，關於台灣自我防衛能力，美國跟中國兩方都措辭強烈，兩方都在指責對方挑釁，你覺得台灣未來五年還有可能保持和平的狀態嗎？

Q: But on one hand it seems like talks have been less and less frequent, and on the other hand we see – on the topic of Taiwan’s self-defense capability, the U.S. and China are both exchanging strong words, both sides are accusing each other of being provocative. Do you think Taiwan can still remain peaceful in the next five years?

A: 所以這個是，答案可能是yes，也可能是no。

A: So to this question, the answer could be yes, and it could be no.

Q: 為什麼是no？

Q: Why no?

A: 如果今天是國民黨在譬如說，2024年重新執政，我們很有信心，未來我們整個黨的政策是向一個、不但有自我防衛的力量，同時我們也希望兩岸能夠重啟和平的對話喔，大家彼此能夠交流，減少誤會，那我們也會跟美方的朋友講說，我們在堅持民主、自由的陣營上面是不會改變的。但是我們也希望透過這樣的穩定、安定的力量，讓這個區域的和平對世界是有貢獻的。然後不是單靠美國、單靠民主國家的力量，這是我們的基本態度。

A: If the KMT were back in power in 2024, we are very confident that our party’s policy will strive for not only maintaining the power of self-defense, but also hoping for restarting peaceful talks across the Taiwan Strait, we can all communicate and reduce misunderstandings. And we’ll tell our American friends that our pro-democracy, pro-freedom position will not change. But we hope by being a stable and secure power, we can let the peace of Taiwan Strait contribute to the world, instead of simply relying on the power of the U.S. or other democratic countries. This is our basic approach.

Q: 想到有一個問題，萬一有軍事衝突，您是否能夠接受任何統一的局面？你覺得到時候什麼樣的局面會是國民黨能夠接受的？

Q: I just think of something – if there were military conflicts, would you accept any kind of reunification? What kind of situation would be acceptable to the KMT?

A:  國民黨堅持的立場是中華民國。為什麼我說，這是堅（持），這是，因為這是國民黨當時從孫中山開始創建的政黨，而我們堅持的是民主、自由，我們不堅持民主、自由，我們不會走到今天。這個是我們最重要的一個立場，中華民國以及民主、自由的價值。而在跟對岸交流的時候，我們也不會忘記我們這個基本的價值，我們的基本的立場。同樣的，我們跟國際的朋友講的時候，我們也會堅持這樣的一個價值，堅持這樣的一個理想，不會改變。

A:  The KMT stands for the Republic of China. Why do I say this? Because this is a party founded by Sun Yat-sen, and we uphold democracy and freedom. Were we not hold to democracy or freedom, we wouldn’t be here today.  This is our most important position, the Republic of China as well as the value of democracy and freedom. When we talk to the Chinese mainland, we won’t forget our basic values or our basic stand. Same thing happens when we talk to our international friends, we will also hold to these values and stand by this ideality, this will not change.

Q: 感覺現在美方好像把台海局勢的一個主導地位，感覺話語權都放在，主導權全都放在中國大陸那一邊。是不是也證明中國大陸其實有策略性的優勢，在臺海的局勢方面？

Q: It feels like right now the U.S. is putting the power of steering… the deciding and the controlling power all up to the Chinese mainland. Does this mean that the mainland actually possesses strategic advantages when it comes to the Taiwan Strait?

A:  我應該這樣講，這是一個動態的、互動的。當國際局勢越緊張的時候，可能是一方，就任何一方都可能是主導，都可能是啟動這個衝突的關鍵點。反過來講，當國際的局勢成為越來越緩和越來越穩定的時候，大家都是主導，大家都不是主導。我們都期待和平，我們不希望俄烏戰爭、烏克蘭的情況重新在台海重現，也不應該重現，也不會重現，只要我們願意努力。所以身為一個負責任的政黨，我們會用積極的態度。今天走到華府來，也告訴大家，國民黨回來了，國民黨在這裡，大家可以聽到台灣很多人的聲音，不是每一個人都希望說，透過衝突、透過對抗是最好的方式，我們也得以透過堅持民主、自由的立場，堅持我們中華民國的立場，同樣的我們可以保衛台灣，我們一樣可以跟對岸交流喔，即便他是很困難的，但是我覺得我們要努力地去做。

A: I think of it this way: this is a dynamic, mutual situation. When global tension rises, it could be one party, or any party that has the say, or could become the critical point that sparks a conflict. On the other hand, if international relations are more peaceful and stable, everyone holds the steering wheel, while nobody is steering the wheel. We all wish for peace, we don’t want to see the Russia-Ukraine war happening in the Taiwan Strait, neither should it happen, nor would it happen – as long as we are willing to put in our efforts. So as a responsible party, we approach with a positive attitude. We come to Washington today to tell everyone that the KMT is back, that the KMT is right here. Everyone can listen to the opinions of so many Taiwanese people, not everybody considers conflicts or confrontation as the best way, we can also pursue by upholding democracy and freedom, standing for the Republic of China, we can defend Taiwan as well, we can communicate with the other side of the strait as well, even though it’s difficult, but I think we ought to try.

Q: 一說到烏克蘭目前俄烏開始打仗了之後，蔡政府一直把台灣跟烏克蘭相比，但是拜登政府的官員一直說，台灣跟烏克蘭其實就是兩碼事，這個事情您怎麼看？

Q: When you talked about the Russia-Ukraine war, it makes me recall that the Tsai administration is comparing Taiwan with Ukraine, but the Biden administration has been clear that those are two different things. What do you think?

A:  台灣跟烏克蘭本就是兩碼事啊。第一個不管從地理位置上，環境上以及兩岸過去的關係上面，我覺得都是兩碼事。我覺得，只要我們能夠秉持這樣的立場，當然就不會發生衝突啊。如果說，你今天一定要、硬要發生衝突，最多可能是小小的意外，而這個意外能夠透過大家同時的對話呢，而不要產生這樣的意外，擴大成爲戰爭。總是避免衝突，避免意外，不要變成戰爭，是我們最高的目標。

A:  Taiwan and Ukraine are certainly two different things. First of all, whether it’s geography, environment and the history of cross-strait relationship, I think those are basically two separate things. I think as long as we can carry on with our position, of course there’s not going to be a conflict. If there must be a conflict, it could possibly be a small accident at most, and this accident could be talked through via dialogues and be prevented from becoming a war. To always avoid conflicts and accidents, not to turn them into a war is our highest goal.

Q: 您剛才有提到島內，其實大部分的民眾都不希望發生戰爭，可是現在國民黨的民調數字不利，你認為是否意味著就是島內的選民，其實也不支持國民黨的對外政策呢？

Q: You were just saying that most Taiwanese people do not want a war to happen, but right now as we look at the gloomy poll numbers of the KMT – in your view, does that mean that the people don’t really support the party’s foreign agenda? 

A:  我不這樣認為。我應該這樣講說，我們整個的，所謂的，整個的政治局勢不是只是兩岸關係唯一的選項。應該這樣講，兩岸關係只是所有政治環境、政治條件的一小部分，那真正的包括一些內政的議題包括，譬如說，最近這個疫情到底，政府做的好不好，在野黨扮演的角色有沒有盡職，民眾都在觀察。啊同樣的經濟的議題，到底民眾的收入是怎麼樣？年輕人的收入是如何？房價越來越貴，越來越高，炒房的議題，誰有能力去解決？這些議題其實對於每一個政黨的支持度，跟對每一次的選舉所扮演的角色都非常重要，兩岸議題只是其中一點而已，如果我們其他的議題都做好，或許我們在兩岸的議題上被民進黨不斷地攻擊，我們會有失分，但是我們如果其他的議題做得更好，我們還是一樣的贏得勝選，所以並不是這是唯一因素。我們只能說，它是一部分，或者是一項關鍵的因素之一。

A:  I do not think so. I think of it this way: our entire so-called political environment is not the only option of cross-strait relationship. I should say this – the cross-strait relationship is a small part of the whole political environment and political conditions, whereas the real issues, including domestic issues such as the recent pandemic – whether the government is doing a good job, whether the minority party is dutiful, people are watching. Same thing when it comes to the economy – how are people’s income levels? How much are young people earning? Housing prices keep climbing up, going higher and higher, real estate market manipulation, who’s able to solve these problems? All these issues actually matter a lot to the popularity of every single party and to the roles of every election, the cross-strait is just a single part of it. If we perform well on other issues, while we might be attacked by the DPP over cross-strait issues and might lose some points, we could do better on other issues, and as a result we win the elections all the same, so this is not the sole factor. We are gonna say it’s part of it, or one of the key elements.

Q: 其中一個很關鍵的內政議題，我想問到的就是萊豬議題。您擔不擔心國民黨之前在萊豬議題方面的立場會影響跟美方的溝通？

Q: One of the key domestic issues – that I’d like to ask about – is imports of pork with ractopamine from the U.S. Would you be concerned that the KMT’s opposition to these imports could be in the way when you talk to the Americans?

A:  我覺得這是兩碼子事，為什麼呢？因為我們講最具體的一件事情。當國民黨執政的時候，我們開放美牛的時候，民進黨是最強烈反對的。那我們這次完全支持美豬，只有反對美豬裡面一小部分的萊豬，它佔的比例是少之又少。而事實上，美方的朋友也很清楚。針對萊豬的議題，這是一個可辯論的食品安全議題，並不是一個真正的政治議題。那我們國民黨堅持這個立場，讓民進黨怎麼去自圓其說，他當時反對美牛的立場呢？這個都是屬於健康的議題，我不認為這個是跟所謂的反美、親美有任何關係。

A:  I think those are two different things, why? Let’s talk about one thing in particular. When the KMT was in power, we opened up for U.S. beef imports, and the DPP were the most against it. And this time we completely support pork imports from the U.S., except the small portion containing ractopamine, it just takes up a teeny tiny portion of the whole import. And in fact, our American friends are understanding. When it comes to pork with ractopamine, this is a debatable food safety issue, it’s not a real political issue. If our KMT stand by our position, how would the DPP justify their own previous stand against American beef imports? This is all about health, I don’t think this is related to the so-called anti-America or pro-America.

Q: 我感覺國民黨和民進黨都同意的一個事情，就是台灣要參與更多的國際組織，要加強在國際事務方面的參與，但是早前拜登政府和國會都已經採取措施，想要推進台灣在世衛大會的這一個觀察員的資格，但是最後這個資格沒有被審議。您認為，當中有什麼因素呢？

Q: I think one of the things that both the KMT and the DPP agree on is for Taiwan to participate in more international organizations, to increase the participation in international affairs. The Biden administration and Congress had backed Taiwan’s observer status in the World Health Assembly, but the request was not taken up. What do you think is the reason here?

A:  其實參與國際的組織，有意義地參與國際的組織是台灣應該要獲得的基本權利，然後，我也希望北京當局能夠認知這一點。我覺得大家都能夠讓台灣民眾對於一些重要的議題，譬如說，氣候的議題、航空的議題或者是治安議題，包括健康的議題、能夠這樣地參與國際組織，我覺得這對兩岸絕對是正面的，而不要讓台灣的民眾覺得遇到這樣的議題，北京就是反對。應該這樣講，對於這些比較有意義的參與的民生相關的議題，你應該鼓勵、支持台灣能夠保障民眾的健康，保障民眾的安全，或者治安的議題，或者是我剛剛講的航空的議題，或者是這些氣候的議題，這些都是好事。

A:  Actually participating in international organizations, being able to meaningfully participate in international organizations is the basic right that Taiwan should obtain, then I hope Beijing could recognize that. I think if everyone can let Taiwanese people have a say on important issues such as climate, aviation, or public safety, or health – if Taiwan can participate in international organization in this way, I think it’s positive for cross-strait relations, rather than making Taiwanese people believe that whenever it comes to these issues, Beijing is against it. We should say this, on these more meaningful issues related to people’s life, you should encourage and support Taiwan’s ability to protect people’s health, to protect people’s safety, whether it’s public safety, or – like I said – aviation issues, or these climate issues, they are all beneficial.

Q: 可是在台灣不斷推動參與國際組織的時候，很多國際組織都面臨一個更強大的中國大陸政府方面的影響，您覺得就是台灣在這方面的推動，他們這一方面的努力還有意義嗎？

Q: But while Taiwan is pushing to join more international organizations, many of these organizations are under the pressure of the much more powerful P.R.C government. Do you think Taiwan’s effort to join these organizations are meaningful at all?

A: 還是有意義的。我覺得，因為還是在很多的國家支持之下，我們應該還是積極的努力。當然，如果兩岸能夠更順利地溝通，讓北京了解，台灣人民要參加這些是有意義的，對民眾健康，我剛剛講健康也好，或者是安全也好，或者是民眾關心的一些議題也好，這些組織真的是需要透過溝通的，讓大家一起來。然後我覺得，這是對於兩岸人民情感的交流上面是正面的。

A: They are still meaningful. I think under the support of many countries, we should still actively push forward. Of course, if both sides of the strait can communicate more smoothly, we can let Beijing know that the wish of Taiwanese people to participate is meaningful, for people’s health – like I said, whether it’s for health, or safety, or other issues that people are concerned about, it takes all of our effort to communicate. And I think, this is beneficial to building the relations of people from across the strait. 

Q: 在參與國際組織方面，美國國會有很強硬、很強烈的表態就是非常支持台灣。但是目前美國國會有審議一個，我不知道您有沒有聽說一個所謂的大型競爭法案，它是準備強化美國本土的半導體產業，擔不擔心這個法案會影響台灣的半導體產業？

Q: On Taiwan’s participation in international organizations, the U.S. Congress has strongly expressed its view supporting Taiwan. But a bill that the Congress has taken up right now – I don’t know if you have heard – the so-called “competition bill”, which is aimed to strengthen American domestic semiconductor production. Would you worry that the bill might impact Taiwan’s semiconductor industry?

A: 我有聽說這樣的法案，但是本來就是在這一件事情，就是說，任何的企業的競爭絕對是多元的，那台灣在整個的產業佈局上面，也不單只是在台灣，有可能今天在中國大陸生產，也有可能在美國生產，也有可能在歐洲生產。所以我們在全球供應鏈的佈局上面，我們這些大型企業都應該要早做因應，然後在國際的不同的政治環境，或是這個不同的經濟環境之下，我們能夠很順應國際的一個需要，所以這個我們是應該可以應變的。

A: I have heard of the bill. But when it comes to one thing, which is, any business competition is absolutely diverse. Taiwan’s role in the industry, it’s not just in Taiwan, it could be manufactured in Chinese Mainland, could be in the U.S., or it could be in Europe. So with us being a part of the supply chain distribution, our big corporations should plan accordingly so that under different global political environments or under different economic environments, we would be able to meet the needs of the world, so we should be able to change accordingly.

Q: 我想問一下您關於官員和國會議員訪台的情況，您是支持他們訪問台灣、加強交流的。但是感覺現在無論是其他官員、議員訪台，或者是其他國家對台灣捐贈疫苗也好，感覺都會引起大陸政府方面的強烈的反應，你怎麼在這些議題當中找到平衡點？

Q: I’d like to ask you about U.S. officials and congressional members visiting Taiwan. You support their visits to Taiwan in order to strengthen communications. But now it seems that no matter the officials and lawmakers visiting Taiwan, or other countries donating vaccines to Taiwan, it feels that the P.R.C. government reacts strongly everytime something like that happens. How do you find a balance?

A: 我覺得，當有這些國會議員、或者官員，或者是願意支持台灣有關疫苗的議題上面，或者是支持台灣最近很多藥品的議題上面，應該是有正面的態度，而不是用政治的角度去思考。我覺得多用正面的角度，多用民眾的角度、民眾的同理心的角度去看議題的話，兩岸之間的衝突、或兩岸之間的緊張氣氛就可以降低一些。

A: I think, when it comes to some of these congressional members or officials(’ visits) – whether it’s on the willingness to support Taiwan on vaccine-related issues, or on the recent support of medicines to Taiwan – (the P.R.C. gov) should look at them in a positive way instead of from a political perspective. I think if they look at issues in a more positive way, more from the people’s perspective and more empathetic, the conflicts across the strait, or the tension across the strait would be lowered.

Q: 我想問一下您，目前美中兩大國，就是整個態勢非常緊張，局勢非常緊張。您希望台灣，甚至是國民黨在這當中扮演什麼樣的角色？

31:33 Q: I wanna ask you, the relationship between the U.S. and China, these two superpowers, the situation is very tense. What kind of role do you wish Taiwan, or the KMT, to play in this?

A: 我已經說過，我們現在是在野黨，我們不可能扮演任何主要的角色。但是我們願意代表台灣人民的一個聲音，就是希望兩岸不要發生戰爭，不要發生衝突，我們堅守民主、自由的立場。但是我希望能夠透過對話交流而避免戰爭，而這個對話交流避免戰爭，不是只是美國跟中國之間要做的，也不是只有華府跟北京應該要做的。我覺得，臺北跟北京之間，或者台灣跟大陸之間也應該要做這樣的工作。

A: Like I said, we are currently the minority party, it’s impossible for us to play any major role. But we’d like to represent a voice of Taiwanese people that we don’t want a war to break out across the strait, we don’t want a conflict to happen across the strait, we stand by democracy and freedom. Meanwhile, I hope we can avoid war through dialogues and communication – to avoid war through dialogues and communication is not just something that the U.S. and China should do, not just something that Washington and Beijing should do. I think, between Taiwan and Beijing, or between Taiwan and the mainland, there should be efforts like that happening.

Q: 下一步，你覺得還有可能對話嗎？兩岸之間？

Q: Do you think it’s still possible to have a dialogue across the strait?

A: 當然有可能啊。我覺得，國民黨重新執政之後，我們還是會持續的對話、持續的交流，那即便我們現在在野，我們還是透過所謂的社會力的交流，什麼叫社會力的交流？就是民間的交流嘛。不管是學術的交流、文化的交流、宗教的交流，或者是城市之間的交流，我覺得都應該還要持續地來做啦，經貿的交流，都可以持續的來做，那現在疫情比較嚴重的時候，你當然不太可能現在看到什麼具體的大型交流活動。但是，我說，至少我們現在這兩年還是有一些視訊地參與這些文化交流或宗教交流活動。

A: Of course it’s possible. I think if the KMT comes back to power, we will still continue to talk, continue to exchange, even though we are the minority party now, we are still pursuing the effort through the so called “social power exchange.” What is “social power exchange?” It’s the exchanges among the people. Whether it’s academic exchanges, cultural exchanges, religious exchanges, or exchanges between cities, I think should continue to be underway – commercial exchanges – should continue to be done. Currently with the pandemic still being concerning, it’s less possible to see actual, major exchanges. But, I say, at least for the past two years we had virtually joined some cultural or religious exchange activities.

Q: 我不知道主席您是否還有時間能夠回答最後一個問題，可以最後一個問題嗎？好。就是之前南加州的那個教會發生槍擊案，我不知道您打不打算拜訪那一個教會？可能您去洛杉磯的時候。

Q: Chairman, I don’t know if you’re still up for the last question, may I ask one last question? Okay. It’s about the church shooting that happened in Southern California. I don’t know if you are planning to visit the church during your stay in Los Angeles?

A: 我這一次沒有這個時間，因為我到南加州只有幾個小時的時間，直接大概三四個小時的時間，我們就直接過去。但是我們對於發生的那個不幸事件，我們黨已經表達哀悼。

A: I won’t have enough time this time, because my stay in SoCal will only last a few hours, approximately three to four hours. We will go there directly. But to the unfortunate incident that happened, our party has offered our condolences. 

Q: 表達了好多次譴責暴力的行為。但是很多媒體都提到，槍手是對兩岸的這一個政治的現狀感到非常不滿。你認為是不是從這一件事情也可以反映出，其實兩岸人民之間的交流，現在存在越來越多困難或誤解呢？

Q: Your party has condemned the violence a couple of times. However, as many media outlets mentioned, the gunman was unhappy about the political situation across the strait. In your opinion, does this case indicate that, in fact, the exchanges between the people from both sides of the strait is more difficult and with more misunderstandings?

A: 我們不應該因為一次的意外事件或者個人的激進行為，去破壞整體的環境和整體的和平，那我更說，不應該因為個人的一個激進的行為就把他認為說，他是什麼樣的一個代表的力量。其實他跟國民黨完全無關。而且我們國民黨強烈的譴責任何暴力行為。

A: We shouldn’t damage the overall atmosphere and the overall peace due to a single incident or some progressive actions of a person, and I should say, we shouldn’t use someone’s action as a statement to suggest that he represents some kind of power. In fact, he’s totally not related to the KMT. And the KMT strongly condemns any kind of violence.

Q: 明白。特別謝謝主席！

Q: I see. Thank you so much, chairman!

A: 謝謝。

A: Thank you.